MODERN HEALTHCARE: Hello, Lisa. How are you doing?
LISA SPENGLER: I’m great.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: I’m so glad that you are able to spare some time to talk with us about this because when this topic came up, you were the first person that came to my mind. Let me just start with a couple of data points to kind of frame our discussion and then we’ll go into the questions.
The first data point is that this year — annual turnover in hospitals stands at about 19.5% and that’s an increase of 1.7% compared to last year. The average turnover for a bedside RN, for example, is $40,000. So, when a nurse quits, replacing that nurse costs $40,000. And then according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average tenure of workers age 55 to 64 is 9.9 years, which is more than triple the tenure for ages 25 to 34, which is only 2.8 years.
LISA SPENGLER: Right.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: For people who are 45 to 54, it’s about 7.5 years. You have been at the University of Chicago for way more than those time frames. So, I wanted to just start by talking about your own tenure at University of Chicago Medicine and how you navigate when change happens. You’ve been there through leadership changes, and then also changes within your own department.
LISA SPENGLER: Right.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: When these changes happen, how do you get to know the new leader? What do you find works well to build a rapport with them?
LISA SPENGLER: I think there’s some obvious things like just being open and honest and approachable. Because obviously no matter what role a new leader’s in, you know, they’re just a person and they want to feel welcomed. I try my hardest to be as open and as available as I can. I mean that to me is just an obvious thing, but I know — I have seen situations where people are kind of closed off to new leaders and I often find myself going out of my way to introduce myself to someone to say, “Hey, you know, by the way, I’ve been here a really long time. So, feel free to ask me questions.” And I know that’s specific to my situation, but I think that goes a long way just helping someone feel welcome.
I think, too, what I’ve learned over the years — especially because my role is in digital — not assuming that this person really understands what you do. So, finding a way to distill and envision the basics for what they need to know about what your team does and what you do, and how it makes a difference in a tangible way. In the case of digital, sharing dashboards on website health or actually showing these things. Because in some cases, too, if you’ve got a new leader who’s a little bit older and has come from a more traditional marketing place for example — to present this information in an easy-to-understand way, so that you’re not obscuring the important points.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: I think every leader would appreciate that. If their new team came to them and said, “Here’s a dashboard of what you need to know to get started.” That’s a good orientation for that new leader.
LISA SPENGLER: Yeah. Something that I really have learned to do over time — and I had to work on this myself — was learning to work through my assumptions on what works and not being too rigid when a new person comes on board. And to remind myself that I’m not right about everything.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: That’s like a good life lesson in general.
LISA SPENGLER: Exactly.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: I just remembered that when I worked with you, I just — I thought of you as the go-to person. And I imagine that other team members and even new people lean on you in the same way, once they see the volume of knowledge you have about the health system.
LISA SPENGLER: Yeah. I get it and I remember, too, even though it's been a really long time. I remember being the newbie and not knowing who to ask. Realizing that you can’t always ask your boss for everything — that there are other people you should be going to as well. So, just remembering that and being available.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: So, new person is on boarded. They’re getting settled in. What are some of the steps you take to assess if you’re going to work well with this new person and this new leader, and how you’ll work with them?
LISA SPENGLER: One thing that’s really important to establish early on is to suss out their communication style — how they like to receive information. I’ve seen some pitfalls where if you flood them with too much information, they kind of shut down and they’re overwhelmed. And you have to remember that they’re not only getting to know their team and who they’re going to lead — they’re also getting to know the entire organization. They’ve probably got like so many massive floodgates going on with people who want their time, especially if their role has been open for a while.
Establish, you know, do they like to have meetings and check-ins? Do they like to get in the weeds? I’ve had some vice presidents who wanted to get into the real deep weeds of content and what we were doing. And I’ve also had leaders who would prefer that we communicate through a kind of a hierarchical style, where my director is presenting the work that we do. So, setting expectations and understanding that maybe it’ll change over time. But I think that's the number one thing is you can help them by not contributing to that floodgate, but also giving them what they need to know, that they can be actionable and effective in their role from the get-go.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: And wouldn’t it be great if the leaders knew that about themselves and could kind of give you that heads-up?
LISA SPENGLER: Right. I think that does require a little bit of coaching, too. Because I’ve also had the situations where someone asks for a full deck — and then you find out that they never read it. And you’re like, what?! And then, you can have a gut check. You know, after they get to know you and they say, “You know what? I really like those kinds of reports you do or I’d really like to have a half-hour check-in with you,” you know?
MODERN HEALTHCARE: So, what about advice for up-and-coming leaders in healthcare? They see a transition is coming and for many folks, that creates anxiety because it could mean a change in your role. It could mean — for some people, worst-case scenario is they get replaced. There’s a job loss. They want to be proactive. What should they do before the new leader even shows up to prove their value?
LISA SPENGLER: Don’t wait for the directives. You know, even before the person starts, start to look ahead for opportunities for things that you can improve. You know, it may take them months to get on board. You want to demonstrate that you can keep things humming and on schedule, and that you’re not a pain point. I would also say, you know, if there’s something that you’re dying to change about your role or your team’s role, or the kind of work that you do — package that idea with how you think that work could be done better. Because this is a great time to change course, when a new leader comes on board.
Embracing learning new skills, taking online classes — I mean there’s so many tools out there now. I think, too, something that we always do in the web world is like really look to your model competitors. Not only the ones in your field — like in my case, looking at other hospital websites — but looking at digital experiences that are great in general. Go outside of your world. Get some ideas for shaking things up. It’s a perfect time to present your case for things that you know could be better, and also maybe some things that you shouldn’t be doing anymore.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: Let’s talk a little bit more about just sort of your personal tenure. Offline, you’ve mentioned to me that your job satisfaction has actually grown. Nobody is saying that, right?
LISA SPENGLER: I know.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: So, help me understand: Why are you more satisfied now than you have been in the past? Considering, you know, a lot of people are really struggling right now.
LISA SPENGLER: I think I’ve been blessed in the last couple of years that I’ve really enjoyed some of the leadership changes that have occurred. What comes with age in general, I think is being more solid and comfortable in your skills.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: Yup.
LISA SPENGLER: Certainly, there are times when I get anxious. And, you know, every time we've had a leadership change, it’s always been an anxious time, too. But I think I’m just more mature and able to weather the storm a little bit better because I have been through it so many times. Some of it is just the fact that I really enjoy the people I’m working with. But I will also say that I see a silver lining in the new ability for more flexibility, and working from home, and just kind of how companies since COVID have been more open to embracing a flexible work schedule.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: Yup.
LISA SPENGLER: So, even though I still tend to really work kind of the same hours as before — I am just a lot happier that I’m not driving to work any longer, that I’m able to work from home most of the time. I think it’s been a huge wakeup call for all sorts of organizations that they need to just be like, why are we forcing people into this box when they can still be productive and happier in other ways? And to allow employees to weigh in on how they want it to be. In the past, it was way more rigid and I was — I mean, I was always worried about like, “Gee, I might need to take a day and work from home.” And it always felt like a scary conversation, which is sort of silly. But, I think that is all in the past.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: Yeah.
LISA SPENGLER: That is part of why I’m happier now. But it’s also, I’m just a curious person in general and that keeps me going, too.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: Yeah. In previous podcast episodes, we’ve talked a lot about burnout.
LISA SPENGLER: Yeah.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: How have you sort of avoided that over the years? And when you have experienced it, what have you done to overcome it?
LISA SPENGLER: Something that I think we should never forget is that it’s not a weakness to ask for help.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: Right.
LISA SPENGLER: I used to always feel like, well if I didn’t get my work done, then I just needed to dip into my free time and make it happen. And I saw it as like my own failing, not as a — well, this is a work-life balance thing and I need to address this with my manager or, you know, with just the department, in terms of their expectations. What my priorities are, and to keep them clear and to ask for help when I need them. And to be able to say, “You know what? No, I’m not going to spend my Sunday afternoon working on this presentation.” Or, you know, as a salaried person, to understand those things might happen here and there occasionally, but to speak up about it. Really, it is setting boundaries. And honestly, again, it’s not a weakness to say you need help.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: Yup. You mentioned earlier about keeping yourself fresh. Seeing what new skill you can add to your tool belt — especially if you know new leadership is coming in. Tell me a bit about your own growth. Sort of in your role and your skill set over the years, how have you been able to keep up, stay relevant, and stay valuable? Even as new leaders have probably come in and looked at you and said, “Hmm, this Lisa girl …”
LISA SPENGLER: Yeah.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: How have you been able to learn how to sort of stay ahead of their curve?
LISA SPENGLER: I’ve mentioned this earlier. I’m a pretty curious person. That also helps with what we were talking about with burnout. I’ve grown into a lot of the roles and the work that I do now, like search engine optimization and pay-per-click advertising, etc. I was the one who just learned this stuff. There was nobody else on our team who did it, and I was learning as the field had changed over time. It was like, well this is a new expectation. I need to — I’m working on the website, I need to understand how search works.
I just had to do it. I found that that made me valuable because then I was able to demonstrate how I would make changes. And then all of a sudden, we’re ranking higher. Or I saw opportunities for page search campaigns that would help bring in new patients and, you know, finding a way to package that, and I’m getting the budget for it, etc. There was no one else doing that for the organization before I did.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: So, just seeing what the gaps are?
LISA SPENGLER: Yes.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: Seeing how it meshes with your skill set, and then just diving in and just kind of taking ownership.
LISA SPENGLER: Right.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: That’s awesome.
LISA SPENGLER: If you’re in an emerging field, not only are you having to learn the tool to apply to the work you do, but you also have a role that you need to educate people on how it works. Because, you know, I still get invited to lots of meetings where sometimes I just have to give some basic pointers on what they’re looking at and what their expectations should be.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: I think that’s any person’s step to show their value. Be able to educate people on what you do.
LISA SPENGLER: Right.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: So, last question. And this one is more, sort of, general advice. So, in a previous podcast with Jason Hutton — he’s the VP of HR for Access Community Health — he talked about people coming in and out of healthcare now. People are raising their hand and saying, “Hey, I’m interested in career-changing into healthcare because of the pandemic. I’m much more inspired now. I feel like this is a calling.” And then you have people who are coming in with non-traditional backgrounds and they feel like this is where they want to be.
For folks who are interested in a long-term career in healthcare — particularly women who might be juggling a lot of other responsibilities — what advice would you have for them to have a long-term career like yours where the satisfaction grows over time?
LISA SPENGLER: Oh, wow. Like we discussed earlier, being curious and also just the internal networking, too. You know, asking questions, looking not just — not just internally but also externally. For people who are doing things that you’re interested in doing and asking them how they got there.
I think in healthcare, there are plenty of people you can learn from in the organization. They have kind of a — a consensus that we’re all there to do good and to help patients. And to make things better for science, for treating people — that I find that it attracts people who are more positive and goal-oriented in that fashion. And they tend to be open to working with you. I’ve been pleasantly surprised by that. Seeing that you are there for that common good even if, like, in my case — I have nothing to do with clinical care, but I remind myself how important the work is that we do and helping people find the care that they need.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: Yeah.
LISA SPENGLER: I think this is probably applicable to anybody, but knowing when to let go —
MODERN HEALTHCARE: Yeah.
LISA SPENGLER: I think that years ago, I had these assumptions about how things should be. And I’ve had to remind myself when I’ve been wrong, what I’ve learned from that, and when I’ve been pleasantly surprised. And just to be humble in that way. And then to be able to let go and work together for the greater good in the end. And I find that I’m much more — I’m just a happier person in general when I’m not upset about something that I can’t really change.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: I think if there’s anything we’ve learned over the last two years, it’s basically —
LISA SPENGLER: Exactly.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: Well, what you worry about because some things are just out of your hands.
LISA SPENGLER: Right.
MODERN HEALTHCARE: Thank you so much for making the time. This was really good insight.
LISA SPENGLER: Absolutely.
OUTRO COMMENTS: Thank you, Lisa Spengler, for your insight on longevity at your healthcare organization, and how to navigate those leadership changes.
Again, I’m your host, Kadesha Smith, CEO of CareContent. We help health systems reach their target audiences through digital marketing that focuses on the right content.
Look for more episodes of Next Up at modernhealthcare.com/podcasts, or subscribe at Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or your preferred podcatcher. If you’ve been enjoying Next Up, please go ahead and leave us a review on your preferred podcatcher as well. Thank you again for listening.
